Growing Places: How Sustainable Property Development Creates Long-term Value

0:00:06 - Adam

Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the ESG and Property Podcast. You're here with Adam Hines and I am without my trusty co-host, Jordan Relfe, today, who's off sick. So get better soon, Jordan. But as a quick reminder to our listeners of what the show is all about, we are dedicated to educating real estate professionals on the topic of E, s and G, and what we do is we interview the world's leading sustainability and socially impactful property experts. The idea is to extract their ideas, their innovations and advice to give you the information you need to deliver the best buildings on earth. And today we have an amazing guest, Tom Larson, who is the founder of Grow Places, a two-year-old property development and development management firm operating in the UK. And the reason we have Tom on the show, as a relatively young property business, is that he and Grow Places have a very, very unique perspective and it's focused specifically on creating places that improve quality of life for all stakeholders, which in turn delivers better long-term impact and financial outcomes. The reason why that stood out to us at LifeProven and from a podcast perspective is that we are huge, huge advocates of understanding the value and importance of all of the key stakeholders in the real estate lifecycle because they underpin the commercial value of the asset, and that is misunderstood. And I'm going to do a very quick tangent here before we get into the episode and the introduction to Tom. But I just want to set the scene for the listeners as to what we're going to be peeling back the layers for in a second. 

Who are the stakeholders, firstly? So that's the team of your company. It's your investors or funders in schemes. It's the local authority who you do an application with. It's your building insurer. It's the occupants that you're building something for the wider community around the building and also a potential future purchaser of the building or the site. And you're probably thinking well, that's nice, but how do they underpin the value and why are they commercially important? And commercially, your team delivers it. So their success is your success. 

The investor and the funders fund it, so without them, your scheme isn't going very far. The local authority consents to it. So if you do not get consent for a scheme, its value erodes. The insurers insure your scheme through construction and in operation. So if you have insurability issues or high premiums or exclusions in your cover, the value erodes. The occupants rent it or buy it. So if you get that wrong, there are commercial implications. The community around the building are very heavily involved in whether that gets consented and supported and they support it. They spend money there and your future investor is the one who's going to purchase that site and, if you get the positioning wrong for them, that erodes the value. So stakeholders are misunderstood through all lifecycle stages for how they impact commercial performance. So today we're going to explore this in depth and understand the unique strategy of Grow Places. So, Tom, a very, very warm welcome to the show. 

0:03:49 - Tom

Adam, thank you very much and thank you for that detailed introduction. So much, I think, to unpack there and I'm looking forward to getting into it. 

0:03:57 - Adam

Let's do it. Let's hit the ground running. So, firstly, the thing we like to do with all guests is just get an understanding of your background professionally as to how you first became passionate and involved in real estate. Really,, what sort of draw, drew you to that as a career choice? 

0:04:16 - Tom

yeah, so I was. I was on a podcast recently and I gave one answer to this question and then my mom corrected me. So I'll give you my version of events and then I'll give you my mum's version of events. I like this. This is good. 

So my version of events was that I used to, you know, enjoy watching grand designs and watching um other kind of property shows, location, location and sort of thought. That was an interesting area to go into. My mum gave a much more kind of intuitive answer, which was well, our first house where you were born was on a a cul-de-sac that they were building. So we were one of the first houses that was built and then over time, from when I was sort of zero to eight, they were building the rest of the estate. So I grew up on building sites, you know, and my neighbour's properties and you know, throwing ball on the concrete slab and other things like that that I do now remember, and she was like I think that's where you got the, the inspiration, the spirit from to go into property and building, and so I kind of like her version of the story a bit better than mine. 

0:05:19 - Adam

Yeah, go mum. Good memory, good memory, assuming that that is correct. And that, I suppose, was the start of that passion for you for real estate and watching the construction and things change in and around you. And I'm assuming as a young child you were probably quite lonely at the cul-de-sac as the only house, so it was probably great for you to have new people come to the community and other kids to play with, to have new people come to the community and other kids to play with. Is it right just to expand upon how you went from school to university to then into the professional career and sort of the milestones you've been through and what you've done? 

0:05:54 - Tom

yeah, yeah. I always thought I wanted to be an architect, um, and so I sort of was lucky, I think, in some respects, to kind of have that sort of north star early on in my career. So I sort of, yeah, got into architecture school, studied architecture, and then I um worked for leading architects in London for a number of years after university and um, although I enjoyed design and seeing how design could impact people's lives and the spaces around us, I also actually then realized that maybe strictly architecture wasn't my only interest and I was interested in more broadly how design fits into the process of envisioning, funding, building and sort of living in places, and the kind of the brief became a really interesting aspect of the process for me. So obviously, as an architect, you're responding to a brief, whereas I was quite interested in sort of having a bit more agency and trying to input and shape that brief in different ways.  That led me to explore ways into development which ended up with me joining Stanhope, which is a leading mixed-use developer based in London that has been operating for 30-odd years now, I was lucky enough to join them and be sort of guided by kind of sort of master student relationship by one of the senior directors there and that sort of apprenticeship approach, learning on the project from a base of kind of architectural training, meant that over 10 years at Stanhope I sort of graduated, if you want, into leading major developments in London and across the UK and then when I left Stanhope after 10 years I was the head of design as well as a development director there and that led me to, as you said in the setup Grow Places two years ago. 

0:07:48 - Adam

Well, I think most of the listeners, if not all, would probably know Stanhope. They're a very influential and socially and environmentally impactful developer, so I'm sure that was a fantastic place to sort of learn the ropes and how they position their developments from an environmental, social perspective, but with a commercial angle because they're a company and have to make a profit. So I'm curious to know, through that journey with Stanhope, was there a project, was there a challenge, a problem that stood out to you that made you think I need to set this up and do this myself to solve this problem or go after this opportunity? Was it? Was there a defining thing that made you found Grow Places? 

0:08:37 - Tom

yeah. So, as you say, I feel very fortunate and grateful to have had that experience at Stanhope, working on projects, you know, such as the former television centre in white city. That was kind of opening up that site from something closed and private into something much more public and open and mixed in terms of its use and its outlook, um. So I think that that spirit is something which which I enjoyed. You know, that larger transformational type project that is open, that is mixed um, and I think some of those values for me I'm layering on top of that come from deeper personal reasons about a person, sort of why I'm spending my time doing what I'm doing. My parents have both worked in the NHS and so I think there's a kind of like a bigger aspect of sort of service built into me. 

You know, culturally and, and I like also through the sort of architectural training you're, you're often taught to not just think about your red line or, ie, your project. 

You're also taught to think about the city and urbanism and impact on people's lives, and so I think those aspects, plus that grounding at Stanhope, has led me to a position where I wanted to, yeah, have a similar business model in sense of, you know, development management for funds and private owners and charities, but to try and have a have an emphasis on that. That is around some core values of sustainability, inclusivity, particularly around affordability and how we kind of try to create more affordable places, doing that with integrity, which is something which very much is from Stanhope, you know, being professional, being trusted advisors and then working with the best collaborators within the industry through, as I say, partnerships and collaboration to try and innovate and to try and move things on, to try to do better, but to do that in a way which is centred around some core values, as I mentioned there. 

0:10:42 - Adam

It's a really interesting story how and I love always hearing from founders of businesses as to, like, what were the internal drivers and the exact point, if there was one that pushed them to take the jump and leap into starting their own business. And I don't know if we've ever spoken about this on the podcast, actually, but I'll give a quick overview for you of how and why Jordan and I found it LifeProven and because some things rhyme with your experiences, and Jordan and I were. So Jordan was a project director and I was a development manager and we used to run uh, we used to work together, but before us setting up the business we were running a student accommodation scheme and the brief from the client and this was pre us knowing anything about the environment or socially we were clueless in that respect and the brief from the client was, make the student scheme the smallest units, get as many beds as you can in as possible, and we're going to maximize the rental return and sell it. So when we were going through this design process, we thought we'd done a great job because the rooms were tiny. They were tiny little boxes, as small as you could get them. We fit loads of beds in and then we got to the point that the scheme was ready for negotiation for a long lease with a university and during the audit of that university, of the scheme we were pitching to them, they said how have you designed this building to protect our occupants, so our future students that will occupy the building, from mental and physical health challenges? 

And at the time that particular university had quite public challenges with mental health around the students and that had been in the press and the media. So they were very focused on what can we do from a design and operational perspective in this building to protect against that. And that was the first time anyone had ever asked Jordan or I questions to that respect and we were, to be honest, we had absolutely no idea. We were just putting in as many beds as we could. So what we did is we asked the design team who were a very experienced design team what things can we change to improve the health and well-being outcomes? And the design team were like, oh, maybe we should change the carpet for tiles or we'll change the white walls to yellow, and then no one could actually say would that even have a benefit? And if yes, how much health and wellbeing benefit would it have and why? 

And then it was at that point that we realized, oh, if we are the advisors for this scheme and the advice that we give to the client and also to the future investor if they take that advice, this asset's probably going to be there for 60, 70, 80, 100 plus years. We're going to have a generational impact on the people who occupy it, the people who own it, the people who use it, and we have no idea how it's going to impact the health and well-being of the occupants. And at that point we were like this is a big problem and a massive shortcoming in our advice, because we're just thinking purely about design and delivery and getting it done and exciting. So it was at that point our world got flipped upside down it was a massive limitation in our advice, which was then having a generational impact in the negative category that we wanted to solve. So what happened was we we basically tried to raise that and then it didn't go down very well as that approach, that I think we're thinking about this the wrong way. 

So we decided that we needed to set up our own company and dedicate our time and energy to understanding how the design and operation of assets impact people, impact the planet, impact resilience and risk from a financial perspective long term and connect way more dots so we could have a far greater positive impact but also have a better financial outcome, which then connects all of the stakeholders. 

So that was like, I suppose, the founding domino for our business. So it's nice to hear from your perspective you drawing on things from your childhood and your parents and their careers and the sense of service to the community and pulling that into the founding values of your business so you can drive that and create community, a bit like in your childhood when you were the only house on the cul-de-sac and then you've attracted other neighbours to move in and you've created a community. So it's really nice too, I suppose, to hear that the origin story and I'm curious now I suppose we've heard a bit more about you, Tom is to transition into understanding a bit more about what your business does exactly in terms of Grow Places, who you work for and your overall approach, before we then dive into more of the development level technical conversation. 

0:15:39 - Tom

We are, in essence, a development management business, management business and by that we partner with landowners, be that private families or private estates the likes of Truman Estates, who we're working with at Truman Brewery in East London, or the likes of Schroders and others in terms of sort of professional pension funds and investment funds, and then charities and third sector organizations who own land and we're working with one particular one at the moment where we're looking at new schools and housing to create sustainable business models for them. And it's the same, it's the same skill set, an approach that we use. That we apply to different client types, but we also apply that to different uses. One thing that I'm passionate about is the vibrancy and resilience and also value that can come from mixed-use and not a one-size-fits-all approach to any one scheme. So I think sometimes in the development industry people become specialists recreating this kind of product for this kind of customer type and then we're going to kind of go and find land or find opportunities that fit our model. I think that's very valid and there's one approach. What we're trying to do is be much more relationship-driven, partnership-driven and opportunity-driven and say, okay, well, what's the right approach for any one opportunity? And then what the consistency that we bring to that is our approach, our set of values and our kind of our way of doing things that we think unlocks best value for our clients and they're a key stakeholder in this, but also those other stakeholders that you mentioned in the introduction. And how do we have this holistic sense of value? And, by doing that, it creates more value for all of those components. 

And we, because we are operating at different scales, we're operating at the kind of individual building scale typically, um, you know, 50,000 square feet upwards in terms of building size, up to Truman Brewery. Our major scheme at the moment is eight buildings, a master plan, public spaces, which is over half a million square feet of new development, mixed use. So we're operating on the larger end of the project scale in terms of size but also complexity. But we think that's a really interesting space to be in. Some people would call that the kind of place making space, but we prefer to call it the place growing space, and that's the. The whole ethos behind our brand grow places is that we're promoting growth in a really good sense, that is inclusive and it's a tide that rises all ships in any areas. 

0:18:27 - Adam

We want to explore that in in everything that we try to do with our partners and our clients you can tell a lot about a company, a business, a person by the words that they use or choose not to use, and I think what stood out to us is how we stumbled upon you before. 

I'm pretty sure you were in a news article. 

Someone was talking about one of the schemes that you were running and I think you might have been interviewed and the words that you selected, the descriptive words, instantly stood out that you know exactly what you're doing in terms of strategically growing and you mentioned a holistic sense of value. And that stood out compared to a lot of the other noise that you hear in the industry of people saying ESG and impact, and I think, boiling that right down to the point of making a definition, separation between place-making and place growing, that's when you know someone has mastered their craft. So I really want to dial into what. If you could start with the explanation of what placemaking is, just so everyone is on, we will have a baseline. And then what are the key differentiators from your perspective between placemaking and place growing and how is that? Like the tiny things, the small things make the big things, and I know that is a is a small differentiation between one word, but that is a big thing in terms of your overall investment strategy and generational impact. 

0:20:08 - Tom

Thanks, Adam, and thanks for kind of um, kind of picking up on that. And I think you know, I think placemaking is a term which is used a lot within the industry and I think there's a huge amount of good work and goodwill and energy that goes into the placemaking sector and the placemaking industries. We do have a slightly different take on that, but it's kind of an evolution of a set of ideals, I think, which kind of go back, track them all the way back to, kind of like Jane Jacobs and the writing about the city and and and um, what it essentially means is that, um, any, any place is more than the component parts of just the buildings or just the spaces or the people. And the notion of making, I think in that is the bit that we're kind of challenging a bit more. We're very much like supporters and passionate about places, but we see that making can sometimes be seen as something which is coming in and kind of, you know, stamping, your ideals onto a place. The notion of making something kind of suggests that maybe there isn't anything there originally and you're um, you are making it, you're kind of creating that, whereas we see this more about evolution rather than revolution. So the notion of growing is sort of saying okay, well, there's a, there's a set of consensual parts of any place that are there today. Some of them are good, and some of them you can be kind of critical friends on and maybe say, look, maybe we could do this better or we should aspire to do better. Um, and then you try to grow it from there and you know, we are a regeneration company, a property development company, we firmly believe in, the positive sides of growth. Otherwise, you know, you know we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. So we are about change, we are about transformation, we are about growth and we are making buildings within that. 

But this, this nuance around growing places, is trying to see places on a continuum. You know, they've had a life in the past. We are at a point in time when we're stewards, along with our partners. At that point in time the place will have a long, you know, future looking forwards and and how do we kind of help that along and grow it at that point in time? And I've had sort of people kind of critique this and say, well, you know, maybe what we need is transformation or maybe we do need change. We places need to change rather than grow. But I, but I, I sort of look at this as this could still be really quite transformational projects in terms of their scale, their size. You know true, with the brewery, other examples, but the way of going about that is about sort of a hyper-local approach to look at what's there to be respectful of the people, the place, the culture, and then try to work with that and the solution kind of coming from the place, as opposed to the solution being made and brought in. 

0:22:56 - Adam

I heard it come out of your mouth of, like the word making. When you sum that up, saying there's nothing there and you're effectively coming in and dominating, creating new, ignoring what was ever there before. You're just assuming I'm making this place brand new and it's going to be amazing as opposed to understanding the existing place, people, culture, and societal infrastructure and then you are a steward to help grow. That, whether that's a small intervention or a large intervention as terms of, in terms of the development scale, and I think, just going back to the point before, like the small things are the big things and that tiny one-word change from making to growing has it's very significant generational impact that, the way you think about that it's. It's incredible how much positive change and impact that will have on people forever. So I tip my hat to you for making that distinction and being very clear in your definition to people, to help educate that change. 

And I want to, I suppose, peel back another layer from the place growing sort of thesis and strategy. What things do you do on the ground? Let's say you've got a new site. We can even use some of your existing projects as an example. Are there any key differentiators through the sort of investment stages of what you're doing differently than others to approach place making, to place growing yeah? 

0:24:37 - Tom

So I like to think there are and I'd like to think there's going to be more in the future. What I would say again you said at the top we are a young company, we've been going for a couple of years, we've got some projects, kind of you know, coming through. Now I'm also very conscious that we really believe in everything we're saying but it is slightly easier to say than to do, and so we want to be judged in a few years on the kind of what we do as well as what we say in terms of the intention and the approach and the strategy. What we, what we're doing on live projects now with our partners, is to there's a kind of qualitative and quantitative side of this kind of analysis of a place. When you kind of come in as these outsiders um and some of that is to do with you know detailed land use mapping, really detailed mapping at different times of the day, different times of the week, to try to understand how a place ticks in a kind of urban sense. 

0:25:34 - Adam

What are you mapping there? Out of curiosity? 

0:25:36 - Tom

Yeah. So we're mapping land use, we're mapping building types, we're mapping the types of flows of people at different times of the day, different times of the week, and then we're looking at the socio-economic data of a place, the makeup of the community, whether that's age, whether that's demographic, whether that is their sort of socio-economic background, as I say, for example, Truman Brewery. The analysis we did discovered that, you know, the ward within Tower Hamlets which is already one of the poorer wards is quite poor. 

A lot of socio-economic um deprivation sort of deprivation and sort of um challenges, but also that you could look at that as opportunities as well, and it's got kind of a quite an old ageing population in one respect, but it's also got a large amount of really young people. So so kind of a quite an old aging population in one respect, but it's also got a large amount of really young people. So kind of understanding some of that from an analytical perspective, but then actually kind of getting out and talking to people and we as a business, we don't want to be a kind of like an ivory tower developer or or or a faceless company. We want to be out there, we want to be engaging with people, communities, and you know we have a podcast as well which kind of has a digital face to the company. All of this is to try to really sort of engage with the s in the ESG as much as the e, because the s is the kind of the messy human, political, social stuff which is life really and it's not that easy to kind of quantify all of the time. So we're trying to kind of, yeah, try and lead in in that respect and then fundamental things, like you know, the types of consultancies that we're working with on projects. Are they the types of architects or designers who want to come in with a preconceived set of ideas that they are the grand master of the place, and or are they architects that are really kind of contextual and looking at the place and taking their inspiration from the place itself and sort of so trying to layer it through every sort of decision that we're, that we're making? 

But from that kind of set of intentions and then where I'd like to get to moving forward on new projects is using technology, other ways of kind of communicating, to engage local communities early in development processes to try and help them feel some ownership, build some trust within the community, but also with us as kind of outsiders in their neighbourhood to shape schemes in a progressive way. And I think that's quite important really because we are developers, we are not going to always please everyone. We are going to be coming in and we're going to be looking to change places. As much as we think we're looking to grow them, some people will think we're looking to change them, and it's kind of being open and grown up about that and having ways of trying to engage as many people as possible and then just then being very sort of upfront and transparent through our communication about where there will be points of differences between what the council want, what the us as the client and the client want and what the community want. 

And I think a lot of maybe the challenges that the industry's faced in the past is that there hasn't been communication, there hasn't been openness, there's this sort of perception of developers as slightly murky, slightly sort of distant entities or sort of doing things to people rather than with them. So we want to try to do that. But we are also very openly, very commercial as a business. You know we have the three core principles around what is commerciality. We want to be very commercial, we want to be very commercial. We want to be very commercial, we want to be very creative and we want to be compassionate. With that and that rounded sense of value is actually what we think is going to be most successful for development projects going forward and what will not only drive value but will also mitigate and manage risk, which are the two key components of what we do. 

0:29:46 - Adam

Tom that I'm just trying to, I'm trying to piece all this together and and understand your, your process and what makes this really really unique for listeners, so they can understand the the layers of complexity of your thinking, but then your operational activities to then which is the differentiator. So I suppose, from a listener perspective, there's the way Tom's thinking and that is very, very unique, but beyond that it's then what are his day-to-day behavioral changes? That's different from the run-of-the-mill developers. That's then resulting in better outcomes for the company and also the community, and I was just mapping out what you were saying. So I think there were sort of three key stages there. First one was having a better, more in-depth understanding of the local community you're working in and for, and that was going through the sort of land use mapping, flows of people, socioeconomic and demographic data. So you have a much better brief and overview of what's happening in a community before you've even put pen to paper about what could potentially go there. I'm assuming that's like a fundamental part of helping inform your brief and also helping you to then measure over time the impact that scheme has had because you've got a very detailed baseline of what was, what was there before you started and I think that's a fundamental outcome of in terms of the differences behavior that you do and very few people, from what we see, go to that level of depth from that. They elect to do that themselves. Most people that's forced upon them and but they don't then necessarily appreciate that as a commercial value add opportunity to inform their scheme. It's just oh, we've had to do this study and it's just a tick-boxing exercise. So I think that's a unique behavioural shift that you're demonstrating that I think a lot of other people could potentially overlook and they're not doing that and they're misunderstanding that value. 

The second was active engagement and I would say from our historic experiences in real estate and I touched on before about why we founded the company that we were very frustrated with how others were thinking about it and doing it and that, from our perspective, led to a very poor outcome. And one of those pieces was the active engagement of the community during the design stage. Way back when, when I first got into the industry, before I knew anything about what I did, I suppose the the community engagement piece was always a tick box exercise. Get through that with the least amount of engagement and we we don't even consider what people have said, because what do they know? They're not developers, they're just going to complain. That was like the thought process and rationale that I was introduced to in the industry when I first started, and that thought process is super fragmented, short-sighted and, frankly, just completely wrong. And that's that comes back to completely misunderstanding the value of the stakeholders that are the ones that underpin the asset. 

So I think it's refreshing to hear that you're doing that already in terms of active engagement, but you want to push that further and open that up through technological advances to reduce, I suppose, the um, the, the challenges of trying to get consistent feedback and get lots of people on board because usually, it's like manpower of bodies on the ground going and knocking on doors and trying to meet people at cafes and things like that and run events which can be quite costly. So I'm pleased to hear that you're assessing what technological opportunities there are to get that valued information back at scale to help continually inform the design. But as a result, you're helping the community if you're delivering mixed-use assets, have a sense of connection and control over the scheme, which then creates layers of trust, uh, positive relationship, and then hopefully, in time, better social connections with that scheme, because they feel like they know it, they've had input into it and then that's part of their community, that's their home sense of connection to community, as we all know, is very, very powerful and valuable and, lastly, transparent. Once again, as you mentioned developers typically I don't want to paint every developer with this broad brush stroke, but it is relatively common that they lack transparency, especially with wider stakeholders outside of just their funder, and I love to see that you're taking the opposite approach and you're using that as a commercial advantage to be. 

The more transparent you are, the more trust you build. The more trust you build with your stakeholders, the more they want to work with you and see you succeed. The more you succeed, the more buildings you can redevelop and then, therefore, commercially, you succeed. So it's just a positive feedback loop. So what I'm trying to do is just pull on how you're, how you think differently, but then how that results to your behavioral changes in what you do in your day to day, which is what other people can then learn from. So I'm just trying to connect all the dots for the listeners um, just one thing um about. 

0:34:58 - Tom

Maybe you know the thought process and how we get to some of these things I think, I think there are people in the industry who are, who are on the same track. 

You know, I think we're we're in like inspired by that as well. I think it's it's good that there are other people in this space, um, but also we look at other industries, you know, we look at what's going on in culture, we look at what's going on in other industries because the solution is often not in your industry, it's kind of outside of that. So I'll give you an example about you know this, about this transparency thing. I think people will be very familiar now with fashion brands like All Birds, trainers or Vejas, you know, trainers who are, who are kind of their sort of mission behind the company. 

You know, fast fashion is frankly, not very sustainable, is it? You know, saying, okay, well, this, this is what our trainer is made up of, these are the parts, these are where we get our materials from, this is where the wool comes from and this is kind of what it's um, it's transportation costs, of costs, and they put that as the kind of the marketing for the trainer, and so when you go and buy the trainer, you kind of understand a bit about that, what's gone into it and the ethos behind that company. So I think there is kind of a consumer pressure as well as a as a kind of um, it being the right thing to do for, you know, for environment and social factors to this. If you can kind of lean into some of those things that are going on and draw inspiration from other places, I think there's a lot of opportunity that can kind of come from that for what we're doing. So we try to think in that way quite a lot I love that. 

0:36:35 - Adam

Yeah, just diving into the depths of having a much better understanding is what I'm taking from this you're taking a lot more inspiration and cultural understanding than perhaps what the industry norm is. And by no means am I saying the property industry is awful and everyone the bad actors, but I'm not saying that. But I believe and proof will be in the pudding with the positive outcomes that your schemes have, that, the small shifts and changes that you're doing, that's, informing your design and operational strategies, is going to have better positive outcomes, both financially and for people. So I'd like to transition into we got how long we got. We have about eight minutes left, so I want to try and uh round this episode off by looking at your social manifesto and understanding what was the driver of creating a social manifesto and why you focus specifically on quality of life I think this is a super important aspect for us. 

0:37:44 - Tom

You know, when setting up the business, as I said before, I wanted it to be a business which has a kind of sense of purpose too. So that kind of slogan of kind of growing places that improve quality of life for all is quite important to me personally and also, therefore, to us as a business. And I think it's kind of what I struggled with a little bit, to be honest, because what we do as a development company is we go into areas, we bring forward something with a lot of optimism and a lot of care and that tends to increase the value of that area. Because that's kind of the commercial exercise we're trying to do. We're trying to go somewhere, make it improve, which typically means adding new buildings or maybe rebasing rents, and you know there is this kind of commercial growth to that. But I've always sort of felt slightly uncomfortable with OK, well, how can we do that in a way so that we still achieve and maximise commercial growth? But we're doing it in a way that kind of shares and distributes that wealth in a kind of local way and to improve the quality of life for everyone. So it's not just about financial and economic wealth, but I think that is a key component of quality of life, particularly operating in cities like London or other big major cities across the UK and internationally, where affordability is such a key aspect. I also think, you know, being a millennial you know I think it's something that just generationally, our generation has felt more in terms of access to housing or, you know, maybe you know quality of life of our generation compared to baby boomers or parents and other generations. So I think it's something kind of cultural in us as a company as well and that's kind of that's the core aspect for us. 

But around that, obviously you know, quality of life is much broader than than only that. You're kind of maslow's hierarchy at the bottom you've got foundational needs, like I've just described. But then you know, trying to create, you know, healthy places in all senses, whether that's a community, trying to have a mix of uses, as I said, to try to bring different people together at different times of the day, um, we're looking obviously at um low cost, low energy buildings, so low operational costs, through natural ventilation, through, through passive systems, and there's kind of a lot of double wins you can get. So you know you do something that improves the operational efficiency and cost of the building, but it also will improve the health and well-being of the occupants. I think a lot of this kind of broader sense of value is quite aligned with improving people's quality of life, and so these two things are pushing in the same direction. So I feel very comfortable, you know, quite openly saying this is our kind of mission and narrative. If I'm talking to someone in the community if I'm talking to an architect or designer we're working with, or if I'm talking to a fund that I'm working with I don't think you would have necessarily said that in the past I think maybe you've touched on Adam you might have a different kind of slightly different narrative for each of those, but I feel very comfortable that I can have the same narrative for everyone and actually, that is not only authentic to us but it's also valuable to them, and what they want to hear because you know we go and have conversations with funds and this is at the top of their priority list, in the same way, is for the industry and local people, obviously with variations and nuances on the theme. So yeah, that's important. 

And then we have a kind of a manifesto document which is a sort of company document. At the moment we haven't put it out there publicly but we we might do it at some point. And you know, I look back on kind of inspirations from other people who have grown successful businesses, and one, in particular, is Ingvard Camprad, who's the founder of Ikea and um he, he created a sort of a manifesto bible, whatever you want to call it. His was called estimate, the testament of a furniture distributor, I think it was, and that was his kind of like manifesto for what steered the company, and that was then referred to and still is referred to within IKEA and it's on their website, for example. So I think there's quite a lot that can be said for kind of documenting that. And, in terms of our process, we then try to do a similar thing for our projects. So we want to try and have a kind of project manifesto that people will buy into and that's specific for each yeah, exactly For each development, and that will be that will be evolved with the various stakeholders that you mentioned, and I think over time I'd like to engage more and more of those stakeholders that you mentioned into that manifesto in some way. 

At the moment it tends to be the clients or our partners who are working with local authorities and,, the professional team that we're working with, and more and more the community through, through engagement. But if you can kind of pull that together with more and more obviously the community through engagement, but if you can kind of pull that together with more and more stakeholders in the future, I think that sort of north star for the project can then be really powerful because it allows everyone to sort of believe in something collective. Because these are long projects. Any development project is, it's two, three, four years in the planning stage, then that's before you've even put a spade in the ground. And larger regeneration projects can be five, ten years, or even longer beyond that. So having something that is kind of enduring and kind of, uh yeah, steer the project um through challenges and through different um considerations along the way, I think it's quite important. 

And that goes to another point, one of the stakeholders I think maybe that wasn't necessarily mentioned in your, your earlier piece that we consider is kind of future stakeholders as well, future generations, oh, now that's, that's particularly for development, you know, because it is such a long-term thing. But what we're doing is we're creating, you know, we're helping shape new places, new buildings, and they will endure for, hopefully, generations to come. And, um, that kind of legacy piece about, okay, how's this project viewed in 10, 20 years? And what, how might those people feel about a place and how is it potentially improved? Their outlook as well? I think, um, you know, quite an interesting aspect in what we do, uh, in the built environment. It's unique really as an industry that we have such a long lens that that's. 

0:44:42 - Adam

That's changed gears in my head. I haven't heard anyone say that before. And thinking generational impact, yes, but not to the point of saying what does this mean for someone in 10 years time or 20 years time or 30 years time, and almost creating an avatar of what that may look like for various different users of that space. Think about that before in their design or operational brief or strategy, and we've we. So if we're working with, let's say, a pension fund, um, they, they may have a very long-term investment hold period, so they might be investing into something that they're going to hold for 20, 30, 40 plus years. Their investment lens is long term, but I hadn't so we think long term for them, and what does that mean, through all the risks and opportunities through that phase? 

But I hadn't appreciated turning that into sort of the other stakeholders as well, and what does that then mean for the users of the building or those in the community around it through each one of those sorts of time milestones? That's a unique angle and I'm thankful you pulled me up on that out of curiosity about how much of you are in the operational phase when you're looking beyond practical completion. How much of your sort of strategy depends on and the success of that after you've sort of exited the building and direct control is reliant on the quality and attitude of the operator of the building to facilitate not necessarily, the design, the design parts complete, but more the operational programs and initiatives that can come off the back of it. Is that an essential appointment from your perspective to make sure that these things grow and continue to happen and not just fizzle out after a couple of years? 

0:46:33 - Tom

Yeah, it's fundamental, yeah, you've got to the crux of it there, Adam. And again, speaking openly, that's something I'd be interested to see how we evolve our model over time, because we're not an operator at the moment, we're a development entity, but we are partnering, as you say. So Truman Brewery, we're partnering with the owner, who is the operator as well, so that that gives a real um grounding and credibility into the things that we're saying at the early stage. So, similarly, other places working with, with long-term operators or charities and entities of that nature, but we also do work with people whose business plan is to pc or 12 months beyond and in that space, I think that's where some of these intentions, some of these initiatives that it will very much rely on how they're taken forwards. You know, I will say you could have two identical buildings, designed by the same person. They're identical buildings and if you go back in five, ten years beyond that, they could be very, very different places based on how that's operated. So, um, other than us being selective about who we're working with, partners we're working with, and trying to have that values alignment, I think it's something in our model. 

Over time we might. We might look at whether we get more involved in the operation as well to try and, as you say, have some of these long-term impacts. But I do think what we can control and influence is trying to help with networks and stakeholder groups locally as well as trying to empower local people and local groups. This kind of idea of kind of enabling and empowering is something that we feel quite passionate about because that is something that we can, we can sort of control as a, as a development entity. So, like a tangible example of that will be you know, the work that we're doing around Truman Brewery, Brick Lane, Spitalfields.

You know we're working with the Bangladeshi Business Association, for example, and to try to first listen and understand what some of their issues and concerns are. But then instead of, you know, maybe we can help solve some of them now, but maybe it's about, ok, well, you know, maybe we can help solve some of them now, but maybe it's about okay, well, trying to create a neighbourhood, forums or networks or ongoing stakeholder relationships between the entities in the community that enable the, the people in the community and empowers them to, you know, to take pride and to kind of continue that long term. So, um, I think it's a bit of both, but I'd like to, over time, sort of put a lot of focus into that. 

0:49:10 - Adam

Tom, forgive me, I've overrun time flies that's all right I've gone over the clock, but where can people find you and contact you? 

0:49:21 - Tom

so, yeah, the best place to go is growplaces.com. You can find out about our services, but also the community that we're building a series of podcasts on there which are released fortnightly. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube. 

0:49:39 - Adam

Tom, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much and keep up the amazing work. 

0:49:43 - Tom

I appreciate the invite. Thank you, Adam. 

0:49:49 - Adam

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